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Current Issues in Small Animal Nutrition Marion (Meg) Smart, DVM, Ph.D., Sarah Abood, DVM, Ph.D., Claudia Kirk, DVM, Ph.D., Melissa Nixon, DVM August 26, 2007
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----- Transcript of the Conferencing Room Events Copyright 2007 The Veterinary Information Network (VIN) No portion of any VIN Organized Rounds discussion or event may be copied or distributed without the expressed permission of VIN. Ethel Bortle: Now, I'd like everyone to introduce themselves with their city, state, number of veterinarians in their practice, and alma mater. Genevieve Manchester Johnson: Novato, CA, 2 vets, UC Davis Ethel Bortle: I'd like to introduce your instructors for tonight's nutrition session. Marion (Meg) Smart, DVM, Ph.D. Sarah Abood, DVM, Ph.D.
Claudia Kirk, DVM, Ph.D. Melissa Nixon, DVM
Marion Smart: For a clinical veterinarian to understand the pet food industry is not an easy or even an exciting task. That is why I, as a nearly retired, time-on-my-hands professor of veterinary clinical nutrition will attempt to do this for you. I must confess that I am intrigued by the industry as I believe an understanding of its complexity is essential for the profession to appreciate the force controlling companion animal nutrition. Add to this an explanation of the regulations and regulatory bodies involved and you have a real "dog's breakfast". An in-depth comprehension of the operation and the motivations of multinational corporations may help. To help me in this venture, I consulted with contacts I have been involved with in the production and marketing of pet foods. Their comments are in quotes, italics, and underlined. Why were so many brand names involved in the melamine recall? "Other reasons may be that the economies of scale or size in "wet pouch pet foods" are such that it would not be economical for the large companies to create their own production facilities." The formulations for the diets were sent to Menu Foods, how detailed these are is an industry secret. The parent companies relied on the reputation and quality control measures in place at Menu Foods to select the ingredient sources used to manufacture their products. In turn, Menu Foods relied on their suppliers or ingredient manufacturers to send them a quality product that met their specs and price. The suppliers in turn relied on the manufacturer of their ingredients. As you can see there is "many a slip twixt cup and lip". Matthew Kleven: Dr. Smart, given the globalization of the supply chain for pet foods and the seeming inability of the FDA to monitor everything in the industry, how will the pet food industry be able to ensure and convince the public and vets that the food is safe again? Claudia Kirk: Good question. I guess the answer lies in the question do you feel safe eating the food you purchase for yourself. The quality control is pretty good for large companies and the scrutiny of overseas products has been heightened. Michelle Ferrera: Why should I recommend an expensive diet over a cheap one, when the same chef is doing the cooking? Sarah Abood: For Michelle's question-- a practical perspective is that clients come with varying bank accounts and some equate quality of food with cost...so knowing what your options are and when to recommend high end products has to do with owner preferences as much as anything else. Marion Smart: POLL 1 You have suppliers (distributors, brokers) or primary manufacturers of the protein, carbohydrates, and fat sources, of vitamin, mineral, and amino acids, of mineral and vitamin premixes, of flavors, antioxidants and binders. "Premixes typically will have numerous ingredient sources of their own, many of which are sourced off shore." Even the Named Brand manufacturers of their own pet food labels rely on the same ingredient sources. To avoid costly mistakes most pet food manufacturers will select their ingredients from as few sources as possible and avoid using different qualities of the same ingredient source. "Multiple sources of a single ingredient introduce complications to the diet formulation and to the production cycle." To further complicate matters, many of the large multinational companies are a conglomerate of all or part of the above. For example Mars Inc (Waltham) with the purchase of Doane Pet Care Co (Private Label) and Royal Canin/Medical covers private label, grocery, specialty pet store and veterinary prescription diets. Mars Inc. along with Nestles SA manufacturer almost 50% of the world's pet foods. Could the melamine disaster have been predicted? - Not under the present system. Quality control measures are in place at all levels of the supply chain, for most this means meeting the acceptable nutrient or additive concentrations. For the protein sources whether rendered, frozen or fresh, a minimum requirement is that they meet a guaranteed minimum protein%, a maximum ash% and a minimum pepsin digestibility. If applicable they may be cultured for microbial pathogens or tested for heavy metals. Grain sources are tested for mycotoxins and fat for rancidity. Jen Clark: Is recommending Science Diet antiquated? And any other "complete line" of pet products for that matter? Claudia Kirk: I still recommend the major manufacturers BECAUSE of the quality control they have and the research behind the products. So I do not think it is antiquated - but it important to ask about each product that you recommend Amanda Guth: I was surprised to find out that regulations in place in other countries (Canada) do not apply to America-based companies. Is this true for European countries as well? Sarah Abood: While we don't know with 100% accuracy, we tend to think the answer would be true for European countries as well. Marion Smart: POLL 2 Marion Smart: Let's look at each guideline in more detail: A. Do not purchase ingredients from more than 100 miles from the plant. B. Test for all potentially toxic substances C. Purchase from only from reliable sources. D. Purchase from reliable sources that provide only ingredients from Canada or the United States.
E. None of the above
Natalie Dyson: Are there any companies which do their own in house manufacturing of all diets they sell? Claudia Kirk: The Big 4: Royal Canine, Hill, Iams, Purina all do. But they will use contract manufacturers at times. Marion Smart: The following is a list of commonly known organizations in the pet food industry. Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO),
Marion Smart: For those who are curious, the following are the answers:
Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) primary mandate is in the regulation of animal drugs, medicated feeds and food additives. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and its CVM administer legislation prohibiting unsubstantiated health claims. FDA further ensures pet foods are packaged under sanitary conditions and the label contains the appropriate information which includes the ingredient list. Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) regulates the movement of inedible meat products and certification of imported pet foods containing animal products. This body also certifies Canadian pet food plants that meet their standards. Health Canada enforces legislation prohibiting unsubstantiated health claims in advertising and labeling. "The marketing department of most companies is typically the primary culprit in making unsubstantiated health claims in their quest to differentiate their product within a relatively crowded marketplace." A fine line exists between what is a health claim and what is not. Dan Oakes: It sounds like Mars and Nestles don't really manufacture all that much. Sarah Abood: At least as far as Purina pet products are concerned, they manufacture their own dry products--that's what they are known for in the industry. Canned products may be processed in some of their plants, or may be co-packed by another manufacturer. Marion Smart: The Competition Bureau of Canada requires the label on all per-packaged retailed pet foods be bilingual, have a net quantity declaration in metric and the dealers name and address. PFI Pet Food Institute (PFI) a lobby group representing manufacturers of commercially prepared dog and cat food. National Research Council (NRC). Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA) North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) can override any of the regulatory legislation if it gives one partner an advantage over the other. American Feed Industry Association (AFIA) Matthew Kleven: Dr. Smart, given the globalization of the supply chain for pet foods and the seeming inability of the FDA to monitor everything in the industry, how will the pet food industry be able to ensure and convince the public and vets that the food is safe again? Claudia Kirk: Good question: The answer is lies in educating the consumer as to the regulatory process. Note the problem is in the regulation at the level of importation not an omission in pet food quality control. I would ask the consume if they still purchase food for themselves ? Evelyn Sharp: How many of the "premixes" that owners are now buying are also made w/ multiple and/or offshore sourcing? Melissa Nixon: Most of them are sourced from China. Lauren Terihay: How can the previous melamine disaster be avoided in the future? Claudia Kirk: It is a tough one, because you have to have an index of suspicion to test for certain toxins. However, the quality control procedures in place catches most. The melamine was unusual because it was intentional and designed to get under the radar of testing. Michelle Ferrera: My kids eat from melamine dishes, I had no idea that it could be toxic. Melissa Nixon: It seems to be toxic when ground up, but we are not aware of any toxic residue from intact melamine dishes at this time. Matthew Kleven: It sounds like the key to the quality and quality control of pet foods is dictated by a companies logistics. Claudia Kirk: To some extent that is true. Big companies do a good job, so do some small. However many don't have the resources. Amy Schein: Since the recall happened so long ago, why are there still new foods being added to the recall? Claudia Kirk: There are new recalls for different reasons. The latest is for possible salmonella risk. However, for perspective, you might want to check out the human food recall list it is daily. Melanie Crovo: China has shown complete disregard for our health as well as our pets health. Claudia Kirk: Hmm - some countries don't have good regard for their own population. It is important to remember they make a lot of good products too. Natalie Dyson: Is it true that within a 6 month time period, the label and actually ingredients can differ up to 10%? Claudia Kirk: No - that is not true. What is on the label should be in the bag. There was once a "look the other way" reality that manufacturers would use some remaining bags before the new product bags were ready. But it is not legal. Marion Smart: The current pet food crises have generated many questions within the consumer population and within the veterinary community, but the bottom line is the need for more transparency or disclosure. The following are questions that are important for you and your client to consider: "In Canada, the competition bureau and the anti-combine laws regulate mergers and acquisitions in the consumer's best interest. However these laws only consider the possibilities for monopolies or other price discrimination practices to exist not whether the consumer is better off or not. The number of private labels gives the consumer the perception of competition and a highly differentiated market place, when in reality it is quite discrete." B. Should there be more disclosure of the financial commitment the industry has within the profession? Is there more than just the obvious corporate sponsoring of events, seminars, and conferences? If these commitments serve to benefit the advancement of nutritional knowledge within the profession and within the scientific community is disclosure necessary? "Especially, when the opportunity exists to circumvent health legislation with the endorsement of �trusted professionals' who may have very limited knowledge of nutrition." C. How accurately can the nutrient requirements of our pets be defined? What is the best method of evaluating pet foods and how much of this information should be available to the pet owner? Should the role that NRC, CVMA, and AAFCO play in defining these requirements be strengthened? What role does each of the organizations directly or indirectly involved in the regulation of pet foods feel they should play in defining the quality and safety of pet foods? Will expanding this role put a strain on the resources available to them and what would it cost the public to ensure a safe product? Stephen Steep: Can you please give examples of ingredients or products available only from China and explain why this is true? Claudia Kirk: Tauring and amino acids. Most of those are manufactured in Asian countries. I do not know the reason for it but it is a fact of life. The major amino acid supplier in the world is Anjimoto. Fortunately they are very reputable. Alexandra Kintz-Konegger: Was the melamine intended to poison or did it serve another "benefit"? Melissa Nixon: It was added to mimic higher protein levels when the products were tested; the incentive was apparently financial rather than malicious. Marion Smart: D. Do veterinarians feel that they have been adequately trained to address the concerns that the public has about the industry and the nutrition of their pets? "In a perfect world, the veterinary profession would be the bastion of nutritional knowledge and able to balance the requirements of pets with the limitations and complications of food production. Unfortunately, we are a long way from this." More on this topic coming up soon. E. Is the industry out of control? What would be the real cost to the consumer if the industry was strictly regulated? What aspects of the industry should be regulated; for example, multinationals vs. the small producer of specialty diets? Would the cost of enforcement to the consumer become prohibitive? Joan Claus: Which foods do you recommend the most? I prefer Purina due to long time research. Sarah Abood: Dietary recommendations should be based upon what we know about the animal's nutrient needs, what a specific diet or product can provide, and what the owner expects and is able to accomplish (i.e., purpose of animal, environment, feeding management, costs, etc). There's an approach called the circle of nutrition that veterinary nutritionists teach--a way to build a recommendation. All of this to say that we don't hold fast and true with a single manufacturer or brand, because there is no easy answer for the crazy biological variety we seen in the animals we're caring for. Barbara Mack: Iams outsourced its foods with gravies. Melissa Nixon: yes to menu foods I believe. Nancy Buchinski: What is premix? Melissa Nixon: vitamins and minerals added to balance a diet. MJ Mulholland: I thought that a study had been done quite some time ago (maybe >10 years) indicating that melamine was NOT toxic. Do we know yet why, or if, that original conclusion was erroneous? Claudia Kirk: Yes, alone melamine is relatively non-toxic, but when combined with cyanuric acid and cat urine, it is poison/toxic Natalie Tabacca: The pet food recall and associated investigation into pet foods and human imported food sources sheds light on the lack of safety and security with regards to our own food supply. I think this is one of the important pieces of information brought about by this crisis. Melissa Nixon: agreed Debra Eldredge: What food is closest to "mouse in a can" for cats? Claudia Kirk: A/d, DM, m/d are closest Claudia Kirk: Good evening. I have provided detailed notes on the overview of pet food manufacturing and things you should know about quality control. I have picked the highlights out of these notes to address specific questions or misperceptions about pet food manufacturing. So please have a look at the notes to fill in some of the gaps. Pet Food Manufacturing runs the gamut from complex to simple. Regulations vary by locality and state with the larger oversight provided by USDA and the FDA CMV. Manufactures may be small "garage operations" whereby an individual or small group has small batch production and markets locally in Pet Specialty Stores, Pet Bakeries or the on the Internet. These small operators generally avoid any regulation or oversight as long as they do not sell across state lines. A business license is all that is needed. However, the label on the product is a legal document and must meet minimum standards suggested by AAFCO. Because of the number of small niche products, there is very little scrutiny of small operator labels or products unless there is a consumer complaint. Large Global manufacturers are much more in the limelight and there is a greater awareness of their products by regulators. Jared Morgan: Other than the recalled ferret food has any other exotic premixed diets had problems and/or were the examined for problems? Melissa Nixon: There were some large animal feeds recalled due to melamine, and some problems with the pork, poultry, and fish food chains - but no other exotic feeds I am aware of at least with the melamine recall. Claudia Kirk: Small specialty foods companies typically do not have the same level of quality control and ongoing monitoring as the large global pet food manufacturers (eg. Hill's, Mar's, Nestle-Purina, Iam's). Within small specialty food manufactures, there are is a wide spectrum of quality and nutrition. Large companies are very complex and typically have detailed quality control. There are some simple questions to ask when evaluating a new food. If using a complete and balanced food, it is important to ask several questions: Patricia Alford: With more owners attempting home-prepared diets, what kind of guidance can we provide? Sarah Abood: Once you've determined that you've got a recipe that will be appropriate for the animal in question, you should make sure you've got a baseline physical examination (body weight and body condition too) CBC, Profile, Urinalysis documented in the medical record. I think we should plan to examine these pet sand review these diets with owners at least twice a year. Not just the recipe they first started to use but what they are actually feeding 6-12 months down the road. These are basics as a place to start. We can and will expand on this point in the boards. Melanie Crovo: Why don�t us regulations require that pet food ingredients be human grade? Claudia Kirk: will be happy to discuss this later on the boards as it is quite complex. that does not guarantee a lack of toxicity. POLL 2a Good job! Answer D (Both B & C is correct). A co-manufacturer or co-packer is a company like Menu Foods or Merrick Foods. They manufacture food for both small and large companies as well as private labels like Wal-Mart and the like. Small companies typically rely entirely on a co-manufacturer for the entire process from formulation (or even provide a standard formula, ingredient supply, packaging and quality control. A large company may use a co-packer because they need a special piece of equipment (like that needed to make chunks and gravy in pouches) or they need extra capacity. Large companies that use co-packers generally use their own ingredients, food scientist and engineers, and quality control process. 2) Who formulated the product? Was it a nutritionist, a food scientist, or a pet owner with no formal training? For small "back yard" producers, they often have come up with their own formula which may or may not be nutritionally complete. Private label brands are generally produced by food scientist or nutritionist employed by the co-packer. Small niche companies (eg. holistic, organic, human grade) often hire a nutritionist to formulate according to a nutrition concept. The Large globals have formulated recipes by their own team of nutritionist and food scientists. 3) What is the level of quality control? It varies. Quality control is excellent in the big global companies and is more variable (from excellent to non-existent in smaller companies relying on co-packers). Unfortunately, quality control and animal testing is expensive. 4) What are the costs of nutritional testing? Proximate analysis: In order to sell a product with a legal label, a proximate analysis must be done. It is from this testing that the minimums and maximums on the label are established. A proximate analysis tests for moisture, crude protein, crude fat, ash and crude fiber. Carbohydrates are determined by subtracting all the nutrients and determining difference. The cost is about $250-350 per analysis. Ron Scharf: "Dietary recommendations should be based upon what we know about the animal's nutrient needs" ---What source of unbiased nutritional information do you recommend? Sarah Abood: I was referring to our understanding of "nutrient needs" of growing dogs/cats versus adults at maintenance versus gestation/lactation versus hard working animals. I think the basics can be found in several different nutrition textbooks, but the world of animal nutrition is dynamic and we need to figure out how to stay "up to date" just like in other subjects that we deal with on a regular basis. I read a lot of literature and visit with different specialists, practitioners, thinkers to form my opinions. After that I've got to mesh these impressions with what makes sense given the population of animals I see. MJ Mulholland: Which products can ONLY be purchased from China? Are US manufacturers making an effort to find alternate sources? Melissa Nixon: Amino Acids such as Taurine Grace Long: 99% of Purina products are made at their own facilities. Marion Smart: This is true, they also private label as well. Cathy Grey: If the FDA ensures food is packaged under sanitary conditions, how do we get E.coli spinach outbreaks, and BARF salmonella outbreaks? Melissa Nixon: I believe the spinach problem was due to contamination in the field. Poultry used in BARF diets may be contaminated at the slaughter house. So, contamination may have already occurred, and sanitary packaging will not negate that. David McCrork: It really amazed me how many clients were/are under the impression that each company makes their own food at "their own little plant. Claudia Kirk: The major manufactures do. It is the small and private brands use co packers POLL 2b
I thought some of you would just have to indicate C. Anyway, Crude indicates the numbers are approximates. For protein, we measure nitrogen as an indicator of protein - more about this later. Onward... cost of quality control.. Full nutrient analysis: Feeding trial: Palatability trial: Ingredient testing: Teresa Smith: Are any of the so-called holistic diets free from the China pre-mixes? Melissa Nixon: Unlikely due to the requirement for Taurine Lisa Schnurbusch: How can we find out reliable information about who exactly is manufacturing the food? Sarah Abood: Well, you can always call the company and ask if the product in question is made at one of their plants in the USA. And if so, where. Diane No�l: Is the CVMA program based on feeding trial for certifications? Marion Smart: No the CVMa does not do feeding trials as part of certification. At present the whole programme is under review. Andrei Tarassov: do small companies require to do any physiological studies of their food before they can sell it? Sarah Abood: No. Jared Morgan: So where do we go for up to date information as will there be any sort of information sharing designed so that the average Vet doesn't show up to work one day blind sided with a lot of questions he/she knows little to nothing about? Melissa Nixon: The VIN front page usually flags any significant recalls. Several of us are on rss feed alert systems from FDA and other sources. During the worst of the melamine, VIN had volunteers watching CNN 24/7 as well ;-) Cathy Grey: How do we know a product is AAFCO approved? Couldn�t anyone just state that on a label? Sarah Abood: No, companies need to submit their 'data' for AAFCO approval. If a manufacturer were to be so bold as to by-pass AAFCO and put a claim on their label, and then get caught, they would be risking a lot in terms of business. Amanda Guth: I thought Merrick foods was a brand of dog food, too? Sarah Abood: Yes, Merrick has several interesting sounding pet foods with marketing that is almost mouth-watering. David McCrork: Are palatability tests more complicated/costly for cats vs. dogs? Sarah Abood: Not that I'm aware of, but we can have Claudia address this question later too. Valerie Calabria-Maher: Now that China-based sources have allowed toxins into "human" products, do you think that further cautionary measures on the part of US manufacturers will extend into the pet food industry too? Melissa Nixon: Yes I believe there will be increased vigilance; I do not believe that will make every petfood perpetually safe - we cannot check every piece of kibble and every can; there are too many toxins, and too many ways for the contamination to occur. Matthew Kleven: regarding health claims on packaging or ancillary materials, what does differentiate a health claim from a not? Statements on products seem to be misleading so what is the regulation? Claudia Kirk: Health claims are not allowed as they are drug claims. Statements of structure/function are allowed. In other words, calcium is good for bones. There are a couple of approved health claims for urinary tract, hairballs and sensitive stomachs. Amanda Guth: Not only that but there is usually some sort of "kick-back" to the "independent" researchers doing these studies and results that contradict the company's claims are most likely ignored. Claudia Kirk: Well, I have never gotten a kick back!! Where are those kick backs??? Just kidding, while I have been accused of such, the money I receive for research goes to my clients for the cost of medical care. POLL 2c When testing for protein, generally nitrogen is measured and converted to protein. One gram of nitrogen is considered the same as 6.25 grams of protein. This is why the label says "crude protein" because it is only an estimate based on the nitrogen content. Any nitrogen rich compound can falsely elevate the crude protein content. In the case of melamine, it is nitrogen rich and "looks" like protein in standard testing. Thus, the protein concentrate producer cheated the supplier into thinking they were buying high quality protein concentrate. Other questions: David McCrork: So how has the supplier of the contaminated product been punished and did they admit they put the melamine in to raise the crude protein content? Linda Schultz-Lewis: It was my understanding that the melamine was thought to be harmless by the people who added it - and in fact, early in the investigation, it was thought by FDA to be innocuous - is that correct? Claudia Kirk: Yes, that is correct Pia Hiekkaranta: Many of my client are very confused about everything, so they started to cook for their pets. Should we start to write cook books for animals? Melissa Nixon: Unfortunately, it is very difficult to develop recipes for truly balanced home cooked diets that meet or exceed AAFCO guidelines. Recipe books do already exist, but rarely are those diets nutritionally balanced for long-term use :( Michelle Ferrera: The US has anti-monopoly laws, wouldn't this apply? Claudia Kirk: Nope - anyone can make and sell amino acids. Our monopoly laws do not to other countries ((i.e. computer chips) Nancy Weagly: Mice are used to feed reptiles; why don't we have real mouse cat food? Claudia Kirk: I have no answers for that - non enough mice would be my guess. The amount of animal protein in pet foods is huge. Amy Schein: Do we have any actual numbers/percentages of pets affected by the recall regarding primary renal disease or progression of already present renal disease? Claudia Kirk: We are still suspecting a couple thousand. Matthew Kleven: Why are so many companies reluctant to place the caloric content on the bag? I�ve had several clients ask how much to feed of a food we do not carry and I cannot give them anything other than a general guideline or "call the company" which is a deterrent, because we're all lazy. Sarah Abood: I don't think the companies are reluctant; I think the issue is with AAFCO. Although this level of detail is not required on packaging, you can find calorie contents on most websites and the keys or product guides provided to veterinary practices. David McCrork: I personally think there are just too many types/varieties/special formulations- it makes it difficult for vets and people to choose/make decisions. Some company reps are even confused by their product lines. Claudia Kirk: I agree POLL 2d Ahh, the answer is False. The contaminated product was labeled for human use. Nothing more needs to be said here. But here is a sad little Haiku from a frustrated employee in the pet food industry. It drives home the point: Why Chinese ingredients? "Certainly we grow enough wheat in the US to not have to buy food globally." "Weren't the pet food companies just after cheap ingredients at the risk of our pets?" Sadly, the US is now a NET food importer. We have all come to rely on the low cost foods and products. It is a lack of standardized regulations and oversight in certain countries that is the risk. So what are the typical quality control steps taken by pet food manufacturer brining a product to market? The example I use is for a Global Pet Food Manufacturer. Mid-sized and smaller companies may do all, some or none of the following steps: See notes for a description of each process: So pet food production can be quite simple (go home and cook something - to be covered by Dr. Abood). Or quite complex and full of quality control steps. In the US, Canadian and European Market it is typically quite complex. Amanda Guth: Most veterinary clinics usually only provide one company brand of food for obvious logistical reasons. That is why I think it would be hard to convince most veterinarians to provide a more generalized recommendations to clients. Melissa Nixon: Many may need to rethink that concept. Ron Scharf: "It is very difficult to develop recipes for truly balanced home cooked diets that meet or exceed AAFCO guidelines." -- how about Richard Pitcairn's recipes? Claudia Kirk: Regarding above - they are complex and not balanced Holly Trief: What do you think about companies that are producing breed-specific diets? Is this a sound thing or just a new marketing ploy? Sarah Abood: Pitcairn's recipes are recommended by a lot of holistic DVMs but are not balanced. Marty Weber: Why was m/d recalled, was it outsourced to menu foods? Claudia Kirk: The rice protein source was found to be contaminated as their original supplier purchased from elsewhere. Albert Townshend: So who should be setting the standards for the manufacturer of pet food? Claudia Kirk: The standards are set by AAFCO and FDA Teresa Smith: We always talk about nutritionally complete diets, but I have some small dogs that only eat chicken. How do these dogs survive? Marion Smart: What type of chicken a whole bird would likely be better than the flesh. What other treats do they get. A few weeks ago we sent out a survey to all VIN members asking them about small animal nutrition training they had. Opening up the raw data for the recent survey was like a ripping open a long-awaited package. First I wish to thank all the VIN members who participated. Please keep in mind that these results are only preliminary; the full results will be published later. We will have a document in the course library that shows the preliminary data. Questions 1, 2, 3 involved the demographics of the respondents. Graduates from nearly all accredited veterinary colleges were represented. The majority of respondents graduated between 1980 and 2006 and 65% were in a general small animal practice, 7% were from Academia, and 2% were from the corporate sector. Question 4 asked who handles the nutritional problems in their clinic. 47% were addressed by the clinic veterinarians, 26% by technicians and veterinary assistants, and 16% by reception staff. Questions 5, 6, and 7 dealt with undergraduate training in nutrition, although nutrition was taught in most undergraduate curriculums. 5% of respondents did not have any exposure. In 53% of the courses, less than 20% of the time was devoted to feline and canine nutrition. 76% felt that their undergraduate training had not prepared them to deal with the current recalls. Questions 8 and 9 covered continuing education courses. Only 27% of the respondents had accrued 7 or more hours of CE in nutrition since graduating. 76% indicated that the CE helped them answer their client's questions about nutrition. One problem with the CE question is we do not know how many CE hours in nutrition were offered over that time span. Question 10 covered the resources used by veterinarians to keep abreast with nutritionally related issues. 33% read journals and text books. 27% consulted with industry reps. Question 11 asked how you to feel about pet food industry now after the recalls. Sixty-three percent (63%) of the respondents indicated that the current pet food recalls caused them to somewhat to very negatively view the industry. Question 12. Fifty percent (50%) of the respondents felt that the current recalls had a negative impact on the profession and 24% felt there had been no impact. Question 13. Seventy percent (70%) responded that knowledge and experience in nutrition was very important to essential in running a successful practice. Question 14 asked what percentage of their clients considered nutrition important. 75% of the respondents felt that nutrition was important to over 25% of their clients. Questions 15, 16 and 17 dealt with veterinary sales of pet foods. 96% of the respondents' sales involved prescription diets or premium quality diets. Hills/Science diets topped the list. Iams/Eukanuba followed, Purina was next. The final question 17 asked what influenced the decision to provide the diets selected. 67% was based on the industry information. Jiseon Bae: Do you think science regular diet and the Nature's best equal in their quality since they are from the sample company? Claudia Kirk: They are not the same diet and do use some different ingredients. But they are under the same quality control standards. So yes, they are equally good but the Natures recipe is designed for a specific consumer desire. Matthew Kleven: From my brief education to date, we don't seem to have a complete understanding of what is "nutritionally complete"? Sarah Abood: You're right, Matthew, we don't have an understanding of what is nutritionally complete. We have an understanding of minimal nutrient needs for young growing dogs and cats. After that, we make a lot of assumptions for adult pets at "maintenance" and we know little about the nutritional needs of pets with medical conditions. There is a huge need for new knowledge in veterinary nutrition...for all sorts of reasons most practitioners think it's all sewn up. But that's not true. Valerie Calabria-Maher: Now that the pet food contamination problem has occurred why don't the US & Canadian manufacturers make their own premixes? How can they rely on sources that have proven so corrupt in the past- reliability & consumer confidence should make up for the costs to them. Claudia Kirk: They do. Hoffman LaRoch (now something else) makes most of the premixes. But they get their stuff from other companies Poll 03
Ruth Adams: How does one know which diets are associated with which larger companies, e.g. Mars? Are the exact same diets given different labels under specialty brand names for the big company? Sarah Abood: No, Ruth, the exact same diets are not given different labels. It can get challenging to keep track of all the varieties or products a given manufacturer carries. One of the ways I try to educate myself is by visiting food manufacturers in the exhibit halls of regional/national conferences. Another way I educate myself is when I have to learn about a new product that a client or student has asked about. The internet is the place where most companies can share information and I try to use it. Philip Meltzer: There seems to be one story after another lately of quality control issues regarding products coming from China. Is the industry doing anything to pay closer attention to ingredients coming from China? Claudia Kirk: The best bet is for the consumer to pay for quality, but we love to get our bargains. But, there is very high scrutiny of Chinese products these days. Nancy Buchinski: Examples of "private label" brands? Marion Smart: Old Roy Walt Disney brands and million of others. Matthew Kleven: Is there a requirement to disclose the origins of individual ingredients and not just the country of manufacture? Claudia Kirk: No - there is no requirement for that. Not even in human food. With human food there is a law that country of origin be listed in terms of who caught, picked or manufactured the food. Lauren Terihay: Are the same regulations/guidelines used for manufacturers of the BARF diets? Marion Smart: Yes If they are sold commercially through stores. They are subject. Often complaint driven. Lesha Eggers: Do the AAFCO tests determine if the ingredients are bioavailable? Melissa Nixon: That is where feeding trials are important. Lesha Eggers: Do you think the protein content of Hills k/d is too low? It seems like dogs in the clinics on this diet have severely atrophied muscles. Protein content is 14%. Sarah Abood: A general rule of thumb for dogs to meet their protein needs is 1 gram of dietary protein intake per lb of body weight per day. For cats it is 2 grams per lb of body weight per day. I try to walk students through the exercise of comparing dietary protein intakes (you need an accurate diet history) with these thumb rules. Use of protein restricted products can be problematic. Natalie Dyson: I have a client who feeds on a starve/gorge cycle because he feels this equates more to the "wild nature" of dogs. What are your feelings on this? Melissa Nixon: I think he is asking for bloat or gastroenteritis :( Nancy Buchinski: There are veterinary nutritionionists that will work up balanced home made diets for individual pets. That is what I have clients do. Melissa Nixon: Absolutely! I recommend working with a Boarded Nutritionist on an individual basis for each patient fed a home cooked diet. Holly Trief: My understanding is that the Chinese govt does not allow outside inspectors in their plants, is this true? Melissa Nixon: They did allow the FDA to inspect, although I believe there were some initial refusals. Holly Trief: What reading materials would you specifically suggest for those who want to get more information on veterinary nutrition? Claudia Kirk: There are several good books although a tad of bias by sponsors - the nutritional information is generally excellent. The MMI Small Animal Clinical Nutrition Text, the NRC, the Waltham book. Carole Both: Should we favor those diets that have undergone feeding trials vs. those who are only formulated to meet AAFCO's minimum req'ts? Claudia Kirk: Absolutely! Linda Schultz-Lewis: Were large animal vets included in the survey, and if so, did you find any significant differences in large animal vs. small animal vets in their training in and knowledge of nutrition? Marion Smart: We will have to do the stats for this. All VIN members were polled. Jimmy Tickel: I really need to know any info you can give on the mechanism for pet food becoming livestock feed. I would guess it�s just sold as a byproduct....are their any min standards? Claudia Kirk: Yes, you are right. Scrap pet food was commonly sold as pig feed to local farmers as it is an incredible source of protein and nutrition. Often it may have been scrap because it was out of specifications. There are limitations on what can be sold. Due to prion disease this practice is being discouraged and it is illegal to feed same species to same species (ie. cow to cow etc.). Janelle Horton Karau: How much nutrition research is done outside the pet food companies? Claudia Kirk: Most is sponsored by pet food companies. But the majority of nutrition is supported by the major companies either internally or externally. So it is a double edged sword, they provide the knowledge through their support. Valerie Calabria-Maher: Would you recommend that clients try not to purchase food that contains wheat or rice gluten? For a while that was the recommendation - has this changed? Melissa Nixon: Yes the recommendation has changed. Wheat and rice gluten are now being screened for melamine. Carole Both: Should we favor those diets that have undergone feeding trials vs. those who are only formulated to meet AAFCO� s minimum req'ts? Sarah Abood: Carole, I think we all have our own opinions on your question and you'll see my answer soon. Alexandra Kintz-Konegger: Where do I find boarded nutritionist? any lists? Melissa Nixon: http://www.acvn.org/site/view/58670_MemberDiplomates.pml;jsessionid=bbpa2sjxk68e Steve McCauley: Do you feel feeding the large breed diets to prevent developmental osteopathies is superior to feeding just plain adult foods to slow down growth rate? Sarah Abood: Not necessarily. Given what we know about the nutrient needs of these large breed dogs, and given the range of nutrients available across both large breed products and adult maintenance foods (or growth foods), I think there's more similarity than differences. I think it matters more how you feed than what you feed. We can talk more about this on the boards if folks want to! Let's start with POLL 4 Cathy Grey: Is there a way to find out who some of the smaller labels, e.g. Eagle Pack, Innova, Mother Hubbard, etc are owned by if any, bigger companies? Sarah Abood: I guess if I really wanted to know that I'd just call and ask, or look on the website or write to their consumer affairs' office. Cathy Grey: So how do we distinguish the back yard producers, the food scientist and nutritionist from the real reliable companies? Melissa Nixon: By the label - if it is shipped across state lines, it must meet certain standards; those made and sold locally need only a business license to sell pet food :( Marion Smart: Of limited value but right now it is the best we have. Joan Claus: Is it true that the labels can list ingredients, however those ingredients may not be bioavailable? Sarah Abood: If the manufacturer has added the ingredient to the production of the product, they should be placing that on the list of ingredients. Jessica Stout: You have mentioned calling companies for info before recommending a diet. There are lots to choose from and a variety used by clients. Should we start learning about a few and plead "ignorance" for the rest :-( How else can we keep up? There are so many aspects to consider/learn about. Claudia Kirk: That happens to be my strategy. There are thousands of products. I can't know them all. I get asked about many and will try to find out when asked. However, I recommend the foods I have experience with and that I understand the process and quality control Joyce Heideman: How do we know what steps a given company takes before sending it's product to market? Claudia Kirk: You would have to call the company and ask Lesha Eggers: Dr. Smart--Out of curiosity, what do you feed your pets? Marion Smart: Horizon small local company from Rostern SK. Otherwise homemade. Diabetic cat insulin free ground whole chicken grown locally. Philip Meltzer: Many consumers Claudia Kirk: That is true. All companies were at risk but the big companies were able to control their product and withdraw very quickly. Again, the issue here is there is essentially one company that makes the majority of these pounch foods. So the stars were misaligned here. But in general, the quality control is very high with the big companies. Matthew Kleven: I think that the general public has the perception that veterinary medicine has the answers to all our pet nutrition and health care issues, even if they understand that this is not the case in human nutrition. Example the half dozen or so books on the shelves each year spewing the newest diet revolution. It seems that telling my clients "I don't know" is not always satisfactory. The pet food industry must be less misleading with its statements that imply complete knowledge. Claudia Kirk: Good point Linda Sanders: In human nutrition, it seems that a good variety (emphasis here) of wholesome, nutritious, lean, minimally processed foods is best. My own dogs relish small amounts of steamed vegetables, eggs, and fresh "leftovers" much more than their standard "premium" commercial food, which is the basis of their diet. Do you feel that this is a good approach? Claudia Kirk: There is lots of various opinions about fresh food feeding. I do think giving some variety (< 10% of the diet) is healthy. However, if you are basing your decision on the fact they like it , that may be false. Cooked foods are generally higher moisture, warm and novel. Pia Hiekkaranta: Is it beneficial to feed low protein diet to renal failure dogs? Our business manager thinks that Orjen is the best way to go. It has a lot of protein. Claudia Kirk: The study by Jacobs, Osborn and all showed a renal failure type diet improved quality of life and dogs (later study cats) lived nearly 2 years longer than those fed a standard diet. Protein is not the only nutrient that affects this. In fact other nutrients probably have greater effect. Thus, I would feed a renal therapeutic diet if at all possible. Pia Hiekkaranta: What is your opinion regarding Orjen-diet? Marion Smart: Canadian Company (Champion Feeds) Acanna, Dr Corbin original nutritionist has a niche market. Back to our prepared stuff.... Nutritional adequacy statements can be stated in two ways on the label. Both indicate whether the diet meets AAFCO minimum requirements for maintenance, all life stages, pregnancy and lactation or for growth. The most common statement is "formulated to meet." This means that the diet has been formulated to meet the minimum % Protein, Fat, and Fiber and maximum % Moisture and Ash as set out in AAFCO's nutrient profiles (amino acids, vitamin and minerals are also included). The second statement is "passed feeding trials." This means the diet or its family has been fed to a designated life stage group of dogs or cats, over a set period of time. The data collected is then compared to a control group of cohorts fed a diet that has previously passed or to the historical colony average of 30 peers. The eight animals of similar breeding are tested, two can be withdrawn for non-nutritional reasons. For gestation and lactation the trial begins just prior to the second estrus and ends when the puppies are 4 weeks old. Puppies are fed the diet for 10 weeks after weaning. Maintenance diets are fed to dogs over one year of age for 26 weeks. Joyce Heideman: What are the minimum standards recommended by AAFCO in a "nutshell"? Claudia Kirk: Not able to answer anything from AAFCO in a nutshell. The have guidelines for ingredient description, feeding trials, how to calculate calories, recommended nutrient levels and on and on. N. Roxanne Hecht: When Wal-Mart gets a supply of food to label their own, is this just left over "main" co- company manufactured excess food, or anything they have left over? Sarah Abood: No, a company like Wal-Mart doesn't get one of the big pet food manufacturer's main-line products in a different bag or can. They actually have to have a different nutritional formulation (different from anything the big company calls its own). From a nutritionist's standpoint, though, there are so many products that are marketed as 'complete and balanced' that you would be hard pressed to tell distinct differences from looking at anything on the labels. Linda Schultz-Lewis: How is the taurine produced and why is it not available in sufficient quantities in the US? Melissa Nixon: it is synthesized chemically; not sure of the exact process. Most amino acid supplements are currently made in China, probably quite frankly because they can do it at lower cost. Joyce Heideman: For the small organic companies, where can we get information about if they do feeding trials, etc.? Sarah Abood: Call their 1-800 number and ask them. When training students at MSU, I try to help them appreciate something that seasoned practitioners and technicians take for granted: the purpose of a dietary assessment is to determine if what's being fed is adequate for the physiologic status of the animal. On a daily basis, practitioners and technicians make these assessments in a matter of seconds from a combination of observations, hands-on contact and information provided in the history. How do you think veterinary nutritionists define or describe what makes an "adequate diet" for an animal? Sara Schamberger: adequate BCS Casey Thomas: Feeding Trials Michelle Ferrera: healthy weight, coat condition, stool quality, Shannon Baber: use of animal Kristy Bennett: healthy on PE and history Julie Heiss: laboratory work, physical condition Malisha Serrano: The physical exam is normal and behavior is normal per the owner Julie Lenoch: Tastes good, patients accept it N. Roxanne Hecht: feeding trials Heather McCauley: coat quality, activity level Amanda Guth: Physical appearance of the animal Janet Lee: healthy coat, good BCS, etc Elizabeth Nowak: BCS Stephanie Evenson: physical condition of animal Devon Hague: quality of ingredients Jim Teare: Feeding trail and healthy animal Amber Noga: nutrient content Stephannie Tallent: long term health Teresa Sharp: physical appearance Derrick Reed: performance in feeding trials Marcia Hall: healthy, good weight, shiny coat, thriving Lillian Michel: feeding trials Michael Westfall: activity and attitude Victoria Palmer: healthy and thriving Valerie Calabria-Maher: Adequate % & ratios of protein, carbohydrate, fat, etc. Melissa Montgomery: BCS Karen Cleaver: feeding trials Debra Eldredge: normal body condition plus normal level of activity Lisa Schnurbusch: healthy pet Helene Bouchard: palability, BCS Marty Weber: palatability Lauren Terihay: BCS Stephannie Tallent: if a working animal, able to perform job Philip Meltzer: meets physiologic needs Jennifer Schwind: Exam findings, general condition and activity of the animal John Limehouse: BCS and general health Amy Schein: feeding trials, blood/urine tests, physical exam Pia Hiekkaranta: Feeding trials Jared Morgan: minimum dat a base Merill Guarneri: health and BCS, normal blood chemistry David McCrork: ? is my answer- seems complicated to evaluate Matthew Kleven: BCS, history, activity, physical exam Nancy Shubeck: based on dietary analysis of diet ate in the wild Cesar Augusto Lourenco de Lima Fh: feeding trials Melinda Payson: body condition, coat quality, activity level Mark Lane: feeding trials PT Limehouse: labs, BCS, health status Genevieve Manchester Johnson: A diet that meets the nutritional need for the individual. Cailin Heinze: adequate means no clinical signs of deficiency Brittany Schaezler: BCS, activity level Berry Mitchell: appearance and general health Judy Hung: palatability, BCS Christopher Elson: health and appearance Shana Stelzer: coat condition, BCS, overall appearance Patricia Johnson: maintenance of health and condition Carole Both: healthy happy pet both from owner and on exam Melanie Crovo: maint. weight Heather McCauley: resistance to disease Marcia Hall: blood work wnl Stephannie Tallent: database, results of previous feeding trials, known needed nutrients Jerilee Zezula: BC, Coat, energy, stamina, health Michelle Ferrera: Why would a diet eaten in the wild be assumed to be balanced? Sarah Abood: Great job everyone...you're awake and in the game! Here's my description of an adequate diet: Whether we've been evaluating animals and diets for 24 months or more than 20 years, there are always going to be new products and manufacturers that we're unfamiliar with, so we all need some basic criteria to divide unfamiliar products into our "A" bucket, "B" bucket and "C" bucket. Poll 05 For those of you who selected option D, you are thinking along the same lines as I am. Although there is no "Gold Standard" for veterinarians (or consumers) to follow, most clinical nutritionists do not look to the list of ingredients to be informative when making diet recommendations for healthy animals. This is because animals have requirements for nutrients, not ingredients. From the standpoint of "nutritional adequacy", the list of ingredients on the label is not going to indicate whether the essential (required) nutrients are present in the can or bag, or if those nutrients are present in adequate amounts. You might be able to minimize potential contaminants, if you learn which ingredient to avoid, but you won't ever be able to judge nutritional adequacy from the ingredient list. Jimmy Tickel: Compared to regulatory process for humans, how closely does pet food regulation compare? Claudia Kirk: The big companies follow guidelines similar to human factories and in fact may have their plant certified by the ABI (American Baking Institute). Ingredients obviously differ. The issues is there is no close oversight at each plant. FDA inspects plants of concerns and has a very good sense of what the big boys are doing. Charlotte Sanford-Sharp: I was under the impression that Hills Science Diet was one manufacturer that was NOT included in the recall. Is this a misconception on my part? Melissa Nixon: http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2007/NEW01599.html Hills M/D was included in the melamine recall. Holly Trief: How does one find out whether a company is using ingredients from foreign countries, especially China? Melissa Nixon: Call and ask the company. I did this with the manufacturer my horse's therapeutic diet. However, be aware that some livestock feeds were recalled due to melamine added by a US supplier :( Andrea La Raus: Are there any smaller scale pet food manufacturers that you think are good choices? Melissa Nixon: We all have our preferences. I have fed Innova, Wellness, Eagle, and Avoderm personally. I would not want to feed a locally produced diet that did not meet or exceed AAFCO feeding trial standards for growing or breeding animals. David McCrork: SO...is it fair to say that none of the available foods (major brands) will deprive a pet of required nutrition- they differ mostly in the quality of the ingredients? Claudia Kirk: Theoretically yes, but in fact some of the smaller brand foods that are not feeding trial tested cannot guarantee that all nutrients are available without feeding it. Christie Carlo: I heard that there was a nutrition phone number that we could call for case advice somewhere in California that is not associated with a food company (i.e. Hill's). Claudia Kirk: The FDA and the AVDLS. A great resource for reporting is the AVMA web site. Amanda Guth: How long does the process take from actually mixing the ingredients to getting a bag of dog food on the shelf at a store? Claudia Kirk: It varies by manufacturer. But just in time manufacturing may mean a product hits the market in a week. Camille Fischer: Are there any independent studies comparing outcomes such as longevity, incidence of renal failure, and incidence of malignancy in animals fed specific commercial diets long term; is any such information recorded in AAFCO feeding trials? Claudia Kirk: No. It is wildly expensive. Purina has the only longevity study and the other companies have shorter term data on health and disease risk. Ruth Adams: Are the ingredient tests run on each truckload of ingredient or on a particular lot of a final product? Claudia Kirk: The Big guys test at truck side before a product is off loaded. Malisha Serrano: I was informed that since the melamine incident, Hill's has been screening every batch of food. What exactly does that mean? Claudia Kirk: Well, they always screen every batch of food - that is not different. It is just now, they like everyone else is looking for evidence of melamine and cyanuric acid. Joan Claus: Science diet provided recipes. How about other manufacturers? Melissa Nixon: Those old Science Diet recipes were written prior to our current knowledge of nutrition; I don't believe they are considered balanced by current standards. I am not aware of any other manufacturers publishing diets. Donna Korvick: Please comment on breed specific foods. Marion Smart: Breed Specific is in most cases is marketing. I have looked at some of them and formulations likely the same but kibble size, shape may be only difference. Recommended caloric intake may also vary. Protein and fat content can may vary related to breed. John Limehouse: Any info on what's happening regarding recent reports of acetaminophen in pet food? Melissa Nixon: https://www.vin.com/Members/BoardsMain/Boards.plx?Read=2&Id=4*127*590172 see post 55 Sarah Abood: As Dr. Smart has already said, the nutritional adequacy statement on a pet food label results from one of two different methods: actual feeding trials or a paper comparison of published minimal values and a laboratory analysis of the finished product. There are limitations to both of these methods, and we could spend a lot of time debating whether or not feeding trials are superior, but I hope we get to your questions instead! From a practical standpoint, I see a clear benefit to making sure that the products we recommend have a nutritional adequacy statement. For animals that are young and growing, in late gestation, peak lactation, or are hard working, we should recommend products that have been substantiated through feeding trials. These are the physiologic conditions requiring the greatest nutrient needs, and if a product is going to "fail" it will do so when being fed to one of these [subject] groups. Manufacturers that put products through feeding trials to earn that claim are making a significant investment to assure their customers that those products are going to sustain growth, gestation, and/or lactation. For healthy adult pets with "maintenance" needs, a nutritional adequacy claim with the language "formulated to meet" may be appropriate. Much depends on the animal, where the owner likes to shop, whether or not they equate quality with expense, and what is known of the manufacturer's reputation and support. In the Mid-Michigan community where I teach (population of 250,000), I've been sending students out to all kinds of retail outlets to find a pet food that doesn't have a nutritional adequacy statement on the label. Finding a product like this has gotten more and more difficult over the past few years! Because of this, I do not automatically discount private label or store brand products as viable options for some clients to consider feeding their healthy adult dogs and cats. Melanie Crovo: It is my understanding that feeding trials on one food can stand in for other foods in the line that may be different. Claudia Kirk: That is changing. A familied product was one in which there is very minor changes. In general it is a flavor change. Some companies were liberal with their interpretation of that rule. However, a familied product with less than (I think about 10% variance) is now clearly labeled. At least I think that was due to go into effect in 2007 if my memory serves me right. Sarah? Joan Claus: Don't you think bioavailability should be on the label? Melissa Nixon: In a perfect world, absolutely! Wendy Frankmann: Is it true that the ingredient list on pet foods is in the order of greatest to least amount contained within the food as in people food? Melissa Nixon: yes Claudia Kirk: No way to really test except feed it to the animal. If you mean digestibility - it would be nice but there is a lot already on the label. The small companies doesn�t even know that information. Nancy Buchinski: How can a food be "formulated to meet all life stages"? Marion Smart: It meets the AAFCO's minimum requirements for gestation and lactation. Holly Trief: What is meat meal? Claudia Kirk: Ground dried meat Sarah Abood: Obtaining a diet history: Most veterinarians practice some type of nutritional counseling on a regular, if not daily, basis. Therefore, one of my goals for participating in this course is to assist in helping you increase your confidence for making dietary recommendations. Let me start by asking everyone to reflect on your ability to take a diet history. Poll 06 Sarah Abood: Okay, maybe we can assist a few more of you! POLL 7 Melissa Nixon: Those of you who chose "Other" - please share with us on the boards! Genevieve Manchester Johnson: How do we know what's on the label is correct? Sounds like the regulating agencies are too busy to check every product made. Claudia Kirk: There are specific regulations. You can bet the major manufacturers are correct, why risk having your product pulled. Illegal labels are usually those smaller brands. Pat Bradford: What level is considered "low ash"? Claudia Kirk: There are relative specifications for ingredients but no legal definition that I know of. Usually the product has lower levels of bone derived minerals such as low ash poultry meal vs. regular ash. Amanda Guth: Then again what is "nutritionally balanced?" In human nutrition, this changes on a daily basis as something that was once good was bad. That is where my confusion lies. Just because a dog survives on a diet for 26 weeks, does that make it completely balanced? Melissa Nixon: I agree with you. It is a minimum standard and better than nothing. Evelyn Sharp: What about large variety for home-cooked diets (similar to human)? One article was recommending feed what you eat. Melissa Nixon: The problem is keeping it balanced. "Recipe Drift" is a recognized problem for nutritionists working with us "home cookers". Remember, dogs, cats, and humans have different nutritional requirements. Kristy Bennett: What do you as nutritionists think about the difference between "organic" ingredients vs. non- organic? Claudia Kirk: There is no legal definition of organic for pet foods so I don't think much. That is one of those unregulated terms that is left up to the supplier. Janet Lee: So... is there a good source for formulating a diet for use long term? Claudia Kirk: Balance - it is reasonable or seeking help from a veterinary nutritionist. Patricia Johnson: What about palatability? Marion Smart: Palatability is not a measure of adequacy, but related to the flavors included in the formulation. Marty Weber: Do the breed specific foods have to undergo feeding trials with the specific breed to be considered a feeding trial? Marion Smart: No diets have to be feed tested. But yes logic would tell you that the breed should be tested. Sarah Abood: The cornerstone of nutritional counseling is a 3-step process of evaluation (never to be confused with the process of elimination!). Practically speaking, before we make diet recommendations, we need to be able to assess an animal's nutritional needs, evaluate the diet offered and assess the feeding management and environment of that animal. This 3-step iterative process is called the "Circle of Nutrition" and each component is interrelated. Component #1 - factors used to assess nutritional needs are signalment and physiologic status, such as body weight, body condition score, growth rate, reproductive status and level of activity.
These are simple concepts and likely you've heard them before. For healthy dogs and cats, there is little need to take additional time other than what's acquired in a basic diet history and physical examination. However, when there are potential nutrients of concern to manage, or chronic medical conditions are involved, taking those extra minutes to carefully collect information and thoughtfully evaluate all 3 components is critical to setting the stage for how we think about and communicate dietary recommendations to our clients. Edie Best: So melamine is not toxic to humans in this form? Claudia Kirk: Without cyanuric acid not very toxic to most animals including dogs and cats. Patricia Alford: With more grain diverted to fuel ethanol production, US food import dependence will only increase. Melissa Nixon: Very likely, also we are seeing grain costs increase due to the increased demand. Malisha Serrano: But would the melamine toxicity have showed up in humans? Could it have already happened and we just don't know it? Claudia Kirk: It may have showed up if in high enough amounts. It is unlikely since we eat such a varied diet and no one food composes a majority of our diet. And could it already have been in our market - without any evidence - I would guess it is likely. Sarah Abood: There are two different examples of diet history forms that Dr. Nixon and I have placed in the library. In my "dream practice", all clients would complete a thorough, one-page diet history form during their 10-minute wait in the reception area. Then one of our trained technical assistants or licensed technicians would review the form with the client (clarifying brand names, product types, total food intake) after they were seated in an exam room. By the time I walked in, several key items would be clearly charted: body weight, body condition score, current estimated daily caloric intake, diet history details (brands fed and daily amounts fed). Since I'm an optimist by nature, I think this scenario gets played out somewhere in North America. I would love to know where! Melissa Nixon: https://www.vin.com/members/calculators/calc.plx?CalcID=11 is a link to the VIN energy calculator - great for diet histories! Sarah Abood: I'll look forward to expanding our discussion about diet history taking for those who want to contribute on the Boards. Melissa Nixon: Some red flags for food toxicity are:
David McCrork: What type of additional/special testing is done with the breed specific formulas that are now available? Claudia Kirk: Again, varies by company. I know Royal Canin/Waltham tests within specific breeds. All the basic research by Hill's and Purina used large breed puppies to test their large breed formulations. Smaller companies are likely to be "me too" products. Those that copy others' research or ideas. Sara Schamberger: Does the nutritionist that formulates the diet for a pet do their own physical exam and history, or do they get this info from the referring vet? Sarah Abood: It's funny how the internet/information age has changed people's expectations. I've been contacted by people all over the country--"just tell me what to feed"--but my experience has been based on examining and monitoring the animals directly. I am not as effective just answering questions over the phone. Cathy Grey: I thought Merrick foods was a brand all unto itself...seen it on the shelves. Claudia Kirk: There is a co-packer in Texas that was at fault in the Go, Natural food recall. Holly Trief: I had read somewhere that Eukanuba/Iams does not employ a board certified veterinary nutritionist. is this true? Claudia Kirk: They have tons of quality nutritionist but no one on that is boarded that I know of. But this is not to say the Michale Hayaks and Greg Reinharts are not very competent. David McCrork: Has the melamine issue increased the screening for any other possible additives that companies may be using? Claudia Kirk: Well, there is closer scrutiny of products from China. Also, some may be looking at NPN a bit closer but that is a measure more in ruminants not pet food. Joan Claus: In a perfect world all aspects of a pet's health would be answered in a questionnaire but there is not enough time for all. Sarah Abood: Right! So the basic questions that should always be asked and recorded are: what's being fed, how much and how often! Holly Trief: What do think about the foods that have glucosamines incorporated? Marion Smart: Usually not at a high enough level in most. I smile when suddenly good old chicken by-product meal for some companies has become a "natural source of glucosamine". Poll 08 Melissa Nixon: ah you guys have been studying! Back to that poll question, here are my recommendations:
You will want to have the following information at hand when you contact the food supplier: Poll 09
Generally, the higher up you can go, the more chance you have of getting accurate information. If brand name information or manufacturer information is not on the label, then call the store for that information and work your way up. Document all conversations. Enquire whether there has been a recent change in formulation, and whether there have been any other reports of problems. You may ask if the food is manufactured using the same equipment involved in producing a known recalled food. You may also ask whether any of the ingredients have been sourced from outside the United States. However, in May 2007, the FDA issued an alert for the voluntary recall of livestock feeds containing melamine added to a binder manufactured in the United States by Uniscope. Just because a product or specific ingredient was manufactured in the USA does not guarantee it is free of toxicity. You will also want to request a case number that can be used in all further correspondence with the feed supplier regarding your case. The supplier may ask for samples of the food to be sent to them for testing. If at all possible, avoid sending the entire sample! It is prudent to retain some sample for testing at another laboratory at some future date. If you must send the packaging, make a photocopy for the record of the identifying areas of the package such as product name, lot number, best by date, and "manufactured for" or "manufactured by" information. You will also want to report your concerns to the FDA via the consumer complaint coordinator for your geographic area; FDA has posted a contact list here: http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/complain.html In Canada pet foods are regulated at three separate levels. To obtain information on food safety-related issues contact The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) http://www.inspection.gc.ca/ What samples should you save besides the food and packaging? If you are testing for a specific toxin, call the laboratory for requirements regarding sample preparation. If the toxin is still unknown then save all of the above and anything else that seems pertinent. It is interesting to note that ultimately, the specific toxin of interest in the recent pet food recall - melamine - was found to be soluble in formaldehyde. Thus, handling of the sample prior to submission can seriously affect the outcome of testing. All samples must be appropriately identified, recorded, and legibly labeled with owner's name, case identification, date taken, date stored, method of storage, and any other pertinent information. Here is some nice information on the proper packaging of samples from the CAHFS laboratory at UC Davis website: http://cahfs.ucdavis.edu/show.php?id=301 The food toxicity may be confirmed by testing of the product, information provided by the company, or through media reports giving specific code numbers of specific products involved. On the other paw, especially early in an incident, there may be no confirmation of the suspicion. In most incidents, there are also collateral reports of suspected toxicity that are never confirmed and thus never eligible for whatever reimbursement may eventually be provided. Sara Lash: What else besides the sensitive stomach and hairball and urinary diets have been proven or blessed or whatever the legal term is? Claudia Kirk: Well, many of the therapeutic foods, but those are sold to veterinarians and therefore are under different oversight. Still they can not make specific drug like claims. "Help to" is found in most of the label claims. The biggest category of proof is weight loss and weight control. Sara Schamberger: Is it only the larger companies that can afford to do the full feeding trials? Claudia Kirk: Not if there is a smaller product line. Many smaller companies do send there product for animal feeding tests. But many don't due to cost. Melissa Nixon: The client may feel overwhelmed by some combination of the following: Poll 10 Melissa Nixon: Personally, I would choose D! Please see the handout "Calculating Lifetime Medical Costs" for some suggestions on determining cost of care. VIN Members: If you have seen melamine toxicity cases and not previously reported them on the Boards or in the Survey, please feel free to post them in the "Discuss Your Food Toxicity Cases" Folder on the class Board. I have posted parameters of interest there. Also, if you have assisted with a claim to a pet food company, whether for Melamine, Vitamin D, Aflatoxin, Botulinum, or any of the other toxins that led to recalls, please post information here in the "Pet Food Recalls" Folder, where a discussion is already underway. I look forward to a lively discussion on the Boards regarding how you have or would plan to address these issues with your clients. Philip Meltzer: Any thought on alleged benefits of raw diets? Melissa Nixon: Philip, I am not a fan - but let�s talk about that on the Boards - VIN nutrition board, Ron, or a boarded nutritionist. Ron Scharf: Top 2 or 3 recommended sources for nutritional recommendations, please? Sarah Abood: Good night everyone! Thanks for your great participation. We'll continue all of this on the Boards. Mark Lane: Why does the FDA (or USDA?) allow 'Crude Protein' to be a valid parameter, when 'Digestible' or even 'Bio-Available' Protein is so much more relevant & valuable an indicator of quality? Claudia Kirk: Because digestibility as such require animal testing. It is costly and expensive and most small pet food companies would not be able to comply. You would be left with foods from the Big 4 only that have their own testing facilities. While that is a better measure of use crude protein is a legal term used to describe the product. It is not designed to tell you anything about quality. Philip Meltzer: Could you please explain why it is so complicated to devise nutritionally complete and balanced recipes for home cooking? We do it for ourselves (or we try) -- why so difficult for pets? Claudia Kirk: Humans don't do that good of job quite frankly. And, it is not that hard. But you are controlling the intake and not allowing the animal to forage naturally. Also, many owners do diet Darwinism. The recipe shifts over time and become imbalanced when owners stop giving important supplements. Coleen Harman: (I was in Dr. Smart's first Small Animal Nutrition rotation in 94) :) Diane No�l: Why was the new AAFCO protocol abandoned? and why so short feeding trials? can't they feed for longer periods especially the large breed puppies? and there is not even a max. calcium content proposal. for large breed puppies. Claudia Kirk: Not sure I follow what is being asked here. Resubmit to the board. Merill Guarneri: I have been led to believe that the problem in today�s market is not meeting minimum requirements but having too much of a "good thing", true? Claudia Kirk: Overfeeding is a problem for most pets. Not so much that the nutrients are added in toxic levels (exceptions energy, calcium and vitamin D for sensitive Large breeds that may need some restriction.) Pia Hiekkaranta: What is your opinion about raw diets? Claudia Kirk: Lots of claims for goodness - no evidence that I have seen published. A definite health risk with microbial contamination. I would like to see research because the weight of published evidence is against it right now. Lesha Eggers: Specifically, what do AAFCO tests require to determine if a nutrient is bioavailable to the pet. Do they take blood samples as a part of the AAFCO feeding trials to determine this? Claudia Kirk: It depends on the test. Growth and maintenance test use 8 animals per group. A growth test is 10 weeks and a maintenance trial is 6 months. They test food intake, weight, growth, a CBC, chem ( for alb, protein, alp). Other test differ this can all be found in an affco manual. Coleen Harman: Doesn't heart tissue (chicken or beef) contain a large amount of taurine? Claudia Kirk: Yes, but if you grind it - it runs out with the blood. Most cats will not eat a pure heart diet. Amanda Guth: How often does a diet "fail" feeding trials? Sarah Abood: We don't hear about these situations do we? I'm not sure of the answer to this question. I can only comment on the desire of a manufacturer NOT wanting to waste time doing feeding trials for a second or third time. Therefore, a lot of energy and thought and planning is spent trying to get the formulation right the first time. Philip Meltzer: Any thoughts on the benefits (or lack thereof) of raw diets? Sarah Abood: We should definitely all weigh-in on this question on the Boards. Can you pose it again tomorrow or Tuesday? Diane Zilker: hat�s the best way to store food -- in the bag or a plastic container? Sarah Abood: The best way to store food that won't be used for a while is in the freezer. If you're opening a bag and it will take weeks to empty it, I'd recommend an airtight container (preferably using the original bag too). At my own house, I transfer feline kibble from bag to plastic jug because there's less risk of little hands spilling food from the jug than the bag. Sara Schamberger: Is it reasonable to think that a high quality pet food should not contain by-products? Sarah Abood: What's high quality? Only a product without by-products? I don't think it's reasonable right now to expect this, because of the nature of the pet food industry...they use a lot of by-products! Shana Stelzer: What are the special nutritional requirements for large breed puppies, such as Great Danes, Mastiffs, etc? Marion Smart: I have done a comparative study of puppy diets I will add the requirements to Library. Natalie Dyson: What are good recommendations for obese patients? I give recommendations on caloric intake per day, treats which can be fed, and are there key words to look for? So many clients refuse to spend the money on rx'd diets or will agree to one bag and never return. Sarah Abood: I think you all know what constitutes a "good recommendation" for obese pets. How effective those rec's are depends on whether the owner is convinced that changing their behavior will result in a meaningful outcome for their pet. Also, it depends on how confident they are in being able to change their behavior. I'd love to expand on this on the Boards if anyone else wants to continue the thread. Amanda Guth: I once read an article linking excess glucosamine to diabetes in a dog. Any one know of any more about this? Marion Smart: There's some suggestion of a relationship between insulin resistance and glucosamine in humans but that relationship remains unproved for the dog. Marion Smart: That's All Folks!!!! Melissa Nixon: Good night folks, thanks for staying for the duration - our fingers are sooooo tired ;-) Coleen Harman: one of the Waltham reps told me that freezing then thawing leeches out water soluble vitamins...any truth? Melissa Nixon: so we will answer the rest of the questions on the boards :) Coleen - can you take that to the boards? Coleen Harman: thanks and good night :) Camille Fischer: Why is botulinum showing up in so many canned foods when adequate canning is usually kills Clostridium; like was, how does Salmonella get through the heating in production of dry foods? Melissa Nixon: Camille - please take that one to the boards, our nutritionists are on the East Coast and signing off ;) Camille Fischer: Good night and thanks! Philip Meltzer: 'nite Janet Lee: good nite John Limehouse: thanks! Natalie Dyson: thanks, good night Teresa Smith: Good night, Thanks Jiseon Bae: good night Judy Hung: thanks! Genevieve Manchester Johnson: g'nite Nancy Shubeck: Good night & thank you ALL very much! Kendra Healy: Thank you Joan Claus: Later Joyce Heideman: thanks PT Limehouse: thanks, and goodnight all Sue Kascher: thanks, this was great Cailin Heinze: thanks Jim Teare: Thank you for a very informative class. This was very helpful! Stephen Steep: Thanks, G/Night Dori Slater-Vance: thanks Mark Lane: Good night & thanks! Debbie Newcomb: thank you Mei-chun Wu: thanks Nicole Palmieri: thanks Matthew Kleven: Thanks Louise Butler: thanks for the great session Alexandra Kintz-Konegger: good night Amy Korengut: Thank you all! Shannon Baber: thanks and good night Thomas Carreras: good night and thanks Frances Andersen: thanks Andrei Tarassov: thanks Steve McCauley: nite. Julie Heiss: thanks Ellen Buckley: Thanks Mark Zimmerman: thanks Jennifer Graham: thank you Marty Weber: ty Cathy Grey: nite Amy Schein: Thanks and good night! Melinda Payson: thanks, good night Anne Macek-Lachelt: thanks for the info Holly Trief: this was terrific Sara Schamberger: thanks Heather McCauley: nite, thank you Gretchen May: Thanks Pia Hiekkaranta: Thank you! Good night! Ruth Adams: Thank you. Amanda Guth: Thank you for the valuable discussion Ekaterina Borovik: thank you Laura Eirmann: Thanks! Very helpful Patricia Johnson: thanks bon soir Merill Guarneri: good night and thanks Nancy Buchinski: bye/thanks Noah Stroe: thx buenas noches Karen Cleaver: thanks! Ron Scharf: most appreciative! Fiona Smith: Thank you and Sleep tight Valerie Curtis: thank you Sukhjit Gill: thanks Cesar Augusto Lourenco de Lima Fh: thanks Suzanne Lea Danielson: THANKS David McCrork: thanks a lot- great session!!! Lillian Michel: thank you for all the information Sherri Williams: thanks! Melissa Montgomery: good info, thank you and good night Valerie Calabria-Maher: This was very interesting & helpful-Thank you & good night! Antoanella Dumitrescu: Good Night Kimberly Bordelon: Thanks for the informative session! Michelle Ferrera: nite nite - got to get the kids to school in the am Patricia Alford: Excellent overview, thanks Linda Sanders: thanks MJ Mulholland: Bonne nuit! Sara Lash: thank you and see you on the boards Berry Mitchell: thanks and good night Stuart Stevens: thanks- good info Janice Smith: Thanks! Alice van Maastricht: Great discussions. Thanks. Grace Long: Great discussion. Thanks. Diane No�l: thanks , very informative night Barbara Mack: thanks, this was great! Gary Kuehn: Tnx! Janet Alviar: Thank you! Coleen Harman: lots of great information for me to "digest" --- pun intended! Thank you all so much! Lori Winkler: thanks Deanne McCabe: thanks Michelle Ferrera: nite nite Carole Both: g'nite and thanks so much for the excellent info Steven Barta: thanks Mary Fuller: Very helpful session, thanks John Endres: Good night, thanks! Dwight Bradford: Good night. Jennifer Robson: Thanks and Goodnight. Mary Mascheck: g'nite thanks for the info Carla Burris: Great session - Thanks! Evelyn Sharp: nite. thanks Melanie Crovo: thanks Dominique Lam: thanks very much Melissa Nixon: thanks!! Russ Williams: g/n Malisha Serrano: thanks Ethel Bortle: Goodnight, all. Andrea Pomposo: Good night everyone Marion Smart: Goodnight Thank-you for participating N. Roxanne Hecht: thanks very interesting, food for thought. Participants:
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