(Editors' Note: Open discussion was encouraged to promote speaker-audience dialogue, and to provide the opportunity for additional insights. These discussions occurred throughout the conference and are organized on the basis of topics.)

Discussion I: The Veterinarian and the Biologist

T. Gornall: I would like to ask -- why don't we look to the area of biology where we all started? We all started biologically, very basically, in the womb of our parents. We have many roles in governmental agencies that are being filled by biologists that could just as adequately be filled by veterinarians, like many areas of field research, population dynamics and things of this sort. We must consider the whole animal -its disease aspects as well as its biology and medicine. But we don't have many veterinarians filling biological roles!

M. Dulin: I would like to say that we shouldn't go out and take everything from biologists. And I don't think most vets would be willing to start out at $12,000 per year, which is what most of those jobs pay.

R. Eckberg: I think the veterinary schools are too busy trying to train veterinary students to emulate M.D.'s, and that has always been a big bone with me. When we have our meetings in California we always have to go to USC or UCLA and it really makes me fume. I think that the average veterinarian who makes presentations that I have seen is far better than any M.D. presenting the same subject. In fact, a veterinarian trains the intensive care nurses at the Medical Center, as they cannot get a doctor (M.D.) to present the material adequately. And I feel that the schools are very much at fault in not presenting to the student that he is treating the animal as a whole, as a biologist as well as a veterinarian. They get the students at the California Institution of Veterinary Medicine so conceited that unless they can start out at about $2,000 per month they are not doing what is necessary. I feel that if they keep doing this, they (the schools) are just going to strangle themselves. I think that if they are really going to develop veterinary programs the school itself is going to have to start teaching the students to get out there and work with the public and render a service. When the service is rendered, then the veterinarian himself is automatically going to be taken care of.

W. Evers: I am a veterinarian who has been in private practice, a surgical practice, for II or 12 years, who is trying to get into the marine area, especially fish. I think that, in my travels and talking with people, students in schools today are being told that possible positions for veterinarians in the field are available. But the general practitioner in the field, unless he is reading very specialized literature, does not know what is going on and he does not know what is needed. I would think that maybe this might indicate to the industry that they are interested in getting veterinarians involved. That some sort of information be brought forward. Because, as Dr. Sweeney said, the "dog and cat" business is getting saturated. There are veterinarians on every street corner, and they are starting to cut each other's throats. If they are smart, they are going to be looking for different avenues in areas in which to practice.

R. Stroud: I guess that we all are talking about personal opinions, but the idea that the veterinarian is looking for other areas, because he is going to get crowded out of the dog and cat thing, is really not the individual veterinarian that should be in aquatic animal medicine. It is my opinion that the veterinarian should be a dedicated professional who has come up with this interest all along. Perhaps one who has had the background, training and experience all through school, and has had the interest in wildlife or fisheries, and can talk the language of the hatcheryman. Not one that wants to go into this area as a second thought. I think that veterinary training has a great deal to offer in comparative medicine and can help. But the people who go into this and will contribute most are perhaps those that are dedicated to the idea that these wildlife resources are perhaps interesting for their own sake and should be dedicated along that line.

E. Skoch: As a non-veterinarian and a professional biologist, and a member of the organization, I should point out that there is going to be, and is, a movement afoot of biologists getting into this field. Not necessarily as medical personnel, or medically oriented, but as corollary personnel who can be utilized by the veterinarian in the field. So you are going to run into some competition as veterinarians from the professionally trained ecologist, marine biologist, invertebrate or fish man, or what have you from the university.

D. Amend: I would like to make one comment as a non-veterinarian involved in this. I have come up through the fisheries with medical training along the line. I am a past president of the Fish Health Section of the American Fisheries Society, and have dealt with the Professional Standards Committee on this. It is a problem that is dealt with on the other side of the fence with the fisheries person feeling threatened by the veterinarian entering their field, which I feel is unfounded. It think it is an area that, I can reasonably say, is one of the reasons the veterinarian has not made an impact on it, because he has not been able to prove that he can contribute anything to it. You look through the line at who the leaders in the field are. And what is happening? It is the non-veterinarian who is leading the way. What I think it is going to take is a contribution between the two fields. The veterinarian is going to have to understand fish, that a fish is different from a mammal. He has to understand the physiology of the fish, what is going on in it, and make his impact through this direction in the same way the fisheries person is medically trained and is really in some ways inaequately prepared to do the job he is doing. It is going to take a marriage of the two disciplines to really make an impact in this field. The veterinarians who come through this field and want to make their impact have to understand fish, and they have got to be willing to accept a lower salary to get into it and make it. They have got the wave of the future to do it, but this is what I believe it is going to take to make it.

N. Vedros: I would like to make one brief comment in terms of what Dr. Sweeney said about expanding the area with marine mammal medicine. In our laboratory each year we have to raise about two million dollars in grant money, and since this is my responsibility in that organization, I can tell you my experience in trying to raise money to work with marine mammals. If anybody has put in an application to NIH and listed two sea lions, rather than one thousand mice or what have you, and think they are going to get it funded, it is not so simple. But there were some interesting aspects to this. We have found that NIH (National Institute of Health) is very interested in funding work for marine mammals if it has human implication, and I think Dr. Polto was the only one I know of who got a large grant, which covered trying to set up the whole facility. The intramural program in NIH is willing to fund this. The other is NSF (National Science Foundation). We have had very little success with Sea Grant in looking, at least, at infectious disease. So I think that one of the best expansions is to have people look at the marine mammal, at least in trying to apply basic biology to human medicine, which is where the money is. I think this is opening up more every year.

Discussion II: Publishing and the Literature

J. Sweeney: I have some comments relative to Dr. Dawson's presentation regarding the state of the art of research on marine mammals. It was well done, and the points made were well taken. I think that the state of the art in marine mammal medicine concerning the state of the publication set-up is perhaps, as he said, incomplete and inadequate. However, the use of computerized research mechanisms for preparing this kind of survey in the field is inadequate. There is in fact a large number of publications in the literature dealing with aquatic animal medicine and the subject areas as listed in the first part of the presentation are indeed covered in the literature through various publications, some by myself, Geraci, Ridgway, Smith, etc. Many of the publications are in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Journal of Wildlife Diseases, the Journal of Veterinary Research, as well as in major texts. I think that it is necessary to point this out before we leave, demeaning our efforts of publication in our own field. Make no mistake, we need to do more and it is well taken that much of the research currently ongoing in oceanariums does not wind up published. There is, currently, an existing body of knowledge in the literature and it should be pointed out.

W. Dawson: Dr. Sweeney is quite correct and I am aware of most of the publications he is talking about. The game we were playing here was to attempt to model the average researcher who has an immediate marine mammal problem and who is looking for a source of information upon which to base its solution. This is what we were trying to get at, using information which was rapidly available to that particular type of individual, who does not have years of experience as a curator or professional veterinarian in an oceanarium, and who has worked around such animals for a long period of time. Perhaps still , the workers including myself (I should say that some of my publications were not included in that particular document either, and one or two of those were in Science) who do work in the area don't do a proper job in making sure that the journals in which we write are either prestigious enough, or have enough national recognition, to be included in the National Library of Medicine files, which really are still the definitive source of biological research, at least in this hemisphere and also probably on an international basis. I would like to ask Dr. Greenwood, who appears to have more travel experience in marine mammals than most of us, about what I felt was a noticeable absence of comment on the situation for research for cetacean study in Russia. I am very impressed with the amount of work that appears to be coming out in Russian sources, and I am hoping that you, or someone here, could comment on the facilities and apparent investment in marine mammal research in Russia, and possibly tell us why they are doing it.

A. Greenwood: I deliberately left the Russians out, as I don't really know much more than any others. I read the titles in the abstracting journals and some of them appear very interesting (such as anesthesia of dolphins without positive pressure ventilation). I send off to get the translations, hoping to get them back in about a year's time. We did have Russian observers at the inaugural meeting of the European Association. But I think that when they found we were not intentionally physiological and were somewhat primitive at that stage, they went away and did not come back. We know that there is an oceanarium at Batume on the east coast of the eastern shore of the Black Sea, which has bred a bottlenosed dolphin. There is a small oceanarium at Constanze in Romania which keeps solely Black Sea Common Dolphins, and they don't see anything extraordinary in maintaining and training these animals at all. (That's all they ever had.) We know from the literature that there are various stations around the Black Sea and in the north of Russia dealing with marine mammal physiological research. Every effort we have made to get in there and find out about it has been rebuffed. We actually tried to hold a meeting in Moscow, or somewhere in Russia, for our European Association, through Dr. van Heel, who has good relations with them over walrus and such. But it has never really looked as if we would get any useful information out of them. It is obvious that they are working in fairly sensitive areas, and the things they are interested in have application in areas other than oceanaria.

N. Vedros: I would also like to comment on what Dr. Sweeney just said, because we went through the same procedure. On our campus we have about three or four computer literature searchers. They charge you about $7.00 per month for the National Library of Medicine and the Scientific Information Exchange. Then there is a computer in Stanford you can look into for biological literature, which is an independent search. But I would like to throw out a suggestion and give you an example of how it can work. Perhaps this society or several of its senior members can coerce the Marine Mammal Commission to fund such a project. In 1962, some of us were coerced to get back into the Navy when there was an outbreak of meningitis. The first thing we asked for was a literature search, since some of us had been working in other highly specialized areas. What they did was contract to the Independent Computer Retrieval Service in Washington, D. C., where there are several. For $45,000 per year, I believe was the funding, they actually distributed this to three or four hundred people for about $1.00 per month. So, I think that perhaps in such a highly specialized area such as marine mammals and aquaculture, and due to the fact that several of the journals mentioned are certainly not in the Library of Medicine search, maybe we can do a better information retrieval by getting someone to contract this out. It can easily be done and several groups have done this, as small societies. Perhaps this society' (IAAAM) can provide some pressure to fund this.

Discussion III: IAAAM Goals and Functions

Dr. Black: I just want to make some comments as to what I perceive the goals of this organization to be. I myself do not feel clear what the direction of this organization is. It seems at this point in time we have four different functions in the organization, and four things the members are involved with; hence, there are four factions, basically.

One is the marine mammal medicine as practiced in oceanariums. In my perception this seems to be limited by the needs and the resources of these institutions. It seems that marine mammal medicine developed as a support of the exhibit industry, and as a means to protect the health of these animals that were in these particular exhibits.

I feel that there is a second component to marine mammal diseases and medicine, which has implications in the field of wildlife biology. I feel that there are few persons in this group that are involved with that. I don't feel that there is as much emphasis there (on wildlife biology) as is placed on the institutional needs.

In aquaculture it seems that we are somewhat split. Some are in support of the fish/aquaculture/food industry, and to a lesser extent in the exhibit fish. Then there is the group involved in basic biological research, whose problems are somewhat compounded by trying to prove to national agencies that their work has applicability to human health.

I am looking at this organization, wondering how these types of things may be brought together in a manner to have a continuum between these factions.

J. Gratzek: First of all, it (the IAAAM) is necessary. I frankly like to come here and, although I don't work with marine mammals, I love to hear about them. I frankly like the diversity.

R. Stroud: I would agree very much with Jack (J. Gratzek). I find that this organization is refreshing in that it is so diverse. I think we learn, and this is what comparative medicine is all about. We learn from one species to another. One animal group has certain problems, which may be discussed as a marine mammal problem that involves research, basic medicine, basic physiology, etc. This is probably the only group where the fish people, who are involved more in the medical treatment of fish, may derive out of their group comparative information which will stimulate new ideas in approaching problems they have encountered. I think that the one thing we do have in common, of course, is the aquatic environment. Because this environment is a situation where stress plays such an important role, both in mammals and fish, this is the main thing that holds it all together. We have the commercial people here who are providing entertainment services through the commercial aquaria. We have the food producers who are starting more and more to attend these meetings. They all have the economics in mind, the economics of health and medical care. Perhaps this adds another dimension, in that we can come back down to earth. Sometimes scientists get together who have basic research projects going on. But then we mix this through the strata of practicing veterinarians (whether in marine mammals or fish) or practicing fish health specialists, when then brings it down into the realities of the economics of treatment and prevention. This gives a homogeneous base to start from to put the whole thing together and produce something for the society (IAAAM) and a useable product for the society in which we live.

T. Gornall: So far as the cohesiveness of this group goes, I like to compare it to a stew. Occasionally you bite a piece of potato, a piece of meat, a water chestnut and you crack your tooth. We have many individuals from many different fields. I don't think that if you go to the microbiology meeting or veterinary meeting you will get this kind of broad spectrum. We are all sort of cooking in the same water. I think that is our cohesiveness -we are all water oriented. I don't think we need anything else to pull us together. Basically the earth has more water on it than anything else. This is, I think, a direction we will end up going. The organization (IAAAM) can grow, by getting these different ingredients (I don't like to consider them factions!) on an international scale; get some foreign "spice" into this as well! I think it is going to grow and anything that grows too fast is not good. I think we have a good basis for growth, and that is what brings us together.

Discussion IV: Alternate Funding

E. Skoch: I have a question to pose to the veterinarians of this organization. You have all complained that you have a lack of reserach funds and cannot locate funds for research. I think that is pretty well true in any of our fields, whether you are a biologist at a university, a practicing veterinarian, an M.D. or what-have-you. However, there is a way in getting some basic research done on marine mammals by using the universities, small or large, which do not have veterinary colleges. I think we all have, those of us interested in aquatics, at least students looking for projects, funds and laboratories which at times just aren't busy enough. There are many small schools, as a whole group in Ohio, interested in marine problems. I am sure we could, with your cooperation, very easily get involved with the basic research and answer some of the questions that you are having trouble getting funded because we have small funds available. So, if you have problems, I would suggest you contact the smaller, local universities. And don't forget the inland schools, because you don't have to be on the coast to be doing marine research. There is an association in Ohio of marine biologists at Bowling Green, John Carroll, Akron, Kent State, Ohio State, and even a Sea Grant Program. So, this is another way you can get your research done, and it isn't that difficult.

Discussion V: Drug Usage and Enforcement

T. Gornall: I would like to make a point about drug usage and usages of various medications in a research mode. In the needs of researchers/ outlined by Dr. Dawson pertaining to marine mammals, some reference was made to the needs of anesthetic drugs relative to cetaceans. In some areas of this kind of work we have usages of drugs that, by the FDA, 'have on the label for use by a specific individual only, with certain kinds of licensing and qualifications. In many instances this kind of drug usage is abused, and the information derived from the research conducted in that quarter is inappropriate. Because of this, we find that a lot of drugs that could very possible be used in some areas, aren't. I will take for an example the sea otter as an individual. For many, many years there was some early field work done by individuals who did not understand the usage of drugs; hence a lot of sea otters were lost in tranquilization and things like that. Then, a fellow working on his own, Tom Williams, along with a number of others, developed a mode of anesthesia for sea otters. This was a long time in coming, and I think that it was this way because there were a lot of individuals in the field using drugs which they should not have been using and were not licensed to use. What kind of teeth do the federal people have to regulate this kind of drug usage, because a lot of it goes on, even in their own federal community?

H. Hewitt: I am not quite sure of the question, but let's try it. Number one, there are two categories of drugs -- prescription and non-prescription. There is no other, other than some prescription drugs limited to a certain type of practice or regimented research. I know that a lot of drugs are improperly used, and some may be illegally used. The prescription status refers to the sale, as those that can only be sold to a licensed veterinarian. If you read the prescription legend, it says it is restricted for use by, or on, the order of a veterinarian. The illegal sale we do get involved in. Normally that is regulated by the state in which the people are practicing.

There is a catch to all prescription legends; one little catch. There is a provision in the regulations of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, which says that certain people with police authority can use prescription drugs. If you have a complaint that is specific, please make it. We will look at it, and will probably follow the normal federal procedures.

Anonymous (directed to H. Hewitt): I know you have the "teeth" to regulate aquarium pharmaceuticals, but I also know that in the real world a firm could put a product out in the pet shops and not follow the procedures you outlined. How is this situation monitored?

H. Hewitt: Is it legal? No! However, for all things to be enforced, it takes people and priorities.

Anonymous (directed to H. Hewitt): What I want to know is, can you give us an estimate of how far down the line such laws will be enforced?

H. Hewitt: I can give you an estimate. It is according to the amount of interest that is given by the industry that has approved drugs. The priorities will be set according to the amount of complaints. . . This (enforcement of aquarium pharmaceuticals) is low on the priority list.

Discussion VI: Education in Colleges, or Industry?

F. Hoff: I am one of the few mariculturists that I gather are here. After talking to most of the people here, it seems as if most of you are oriented to either an aquarium or some other veterinarian situation. We came here as members for the first time, and I would like to give you sort of my overall feeling of what I have seen. There is a definite need for you people in the mariculture field. I have been in it for twelve years approximately; marine aquaculture and not fresh water. We run a salt water tropical fish farm in Dade City, Florida, which I believe is the first one in the world. But we are stymied by a lot of problems. We feel like loners out there. Thanks to Dr. Gratzek, who is our only hope in many of our problems. Which seems a shame because he is in Georgia, and is supposed to be taking care of some of my problems. I don't get the connection. It should be the state of Florida who should provide this service to us, especially with 250 fish farms in the area.

I would like to say that I would like to see you (the IAAAM) continue to have the split interest, not only in marine mammals, but also in fish. But don't forget in vertebrates. There are very, very large amounts of money being spent on the mariculture of invertebrates, as by the Coca-Cola Company, General Mills, Ralston-Purina; millions of dollars are being spent. There is also a need right here for aquatic animal medicine. We are talking about food application in these cases.

Ours is obviously not for food, but for the pet business. We would like to see more interest directed to us. There was a statement also made that we cannot pay the fees; the fish farmers just don't have the money. Well, I don't think it is all that way. What can you (the veterinarian) provide me? Can you provide me a service, or am I going to have to train you how to take care of marine fish? I am not in a training position! I cannot afford to train you! Therefore, I would rather see people being taught in schools how to take care of marine fish. There is no practical experience in colleges that I can see, except for a very few, as Auburn and a few other places. Most people coming out of colleges know absolutely nothing about taking care of their own product. They can apply medicine to them, and so forth, but they really can't keep one alive themselves. That's bad, right there from the start. So, I would like to see those on the college level trying to develop a more practical teaching program. I am toying with the idea, after listening to you people, of considering if it is possible (this is in private industry, where it is not always possible) to support a temporary situation for the summertime veterinarian student to tackle a single problem of ours, and we will partially pick up the bill. I am thinking about this, and I would like to invite students to maybe outline what they can do for us, or what they would like to pursue in marine fish. I will entertain this, and possibly will pass it on to other people in the mariculture field. Also (I do not know if you are aware of it), the World Mariculture Society has about three to five hundred members, all dedicated to the culture of aquatic animals. You, the IAAAM, might consider looking into this, as well as the catfish industry and of course the Florida Fish farmers Association.

J. Gratzek: The IAAAM is trying to set up an education committee, and during the business meeting we established an educational program. It looks as if we can get some money from people like you and others; that we might have a fund available through this organization (the IAAAM). This would be for special educational projects. Hopefully this year we will be instituting such a program. I would like to ask you, as well as the tropical fish farmers association, to kick in some of that cash to the educational fund. Possibly we can get students to work on specific projects. There are at least four or five from the veterinary colleges that know fish and have a good basis of medicine, which will arm them to do something positive for us. This is the kind of activity we need.

R. Stroud: In reference to the comments by Mr. Hoff concerning crustaceans, I could not agree more with the broad concept of medicine, since it belongs in all groups. In fact, we have had in this organization papers on crustacean diseases. I again tried to solicit a specific, broad-view paper on shrimp diseases this year. Unfortunately, conflict with the speaker's other responsibilities arose. We will endeavor in the future to include this aspect in our programs. We did have a turtle paper at this meeting, and I think this is another area, even if a slightly different species. Many of the problems are all similar in the aquatic environment, and I think this broad facet is very important.